Burda Style For people who sew

Hi, I was looking for a definition of grosgrain ribbon today and noticed that it hasn’t been covered in the Terms section yet. Is it perhaps the same as Petersham ribbon?

Aug 12, 2009, 04.24 PM by buzzybee

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  Aug 12, 2009, 08.10 PMby wzrdreams

  I was wondering about that also. I see that term (petersham) on UK blogs and in Burda WOF a lot, but I haven’t seen a close up picture to know for sure. I’m very curious about the origin of the term “petersham”.
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  Aug 14, 2009, 02.45 PMby victors

  I think they are nearly the same thing. Petersham has a scalloped edge so you can shape it. Grosgrain is straight edged.

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    Aug 17, 2009, 02.58 PMby wzrdreams

    What do you mean by scalloped and straight edges? All the grosgrain I use is bumpy on the edge. I don’t use cheap imitation grosgrain though. The poly faux-grain does have straight edges. Maybe that’s the UK dfference. Mokuba is a Japanese trim company and they call the bumpy edged stuff Grosgrain.

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  Aug 19, 2009, 03.19 PMby victors

  My ribbons are the opposite way round. Seems like the two are differently named in different countries. Maybe we could ask Gedwoods to add an inventory of trimmings on his wiki?
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  Aug 22, 2009, 04.30 PMby nehmah

  Petersham is the name of the man who first produced this type of grosgrain ribbon. IF you cut equal lengths of grosgrain and Petersham ribbons, you will notice that the grosgrain is almost always woven very tightly, while the Petersham is a little “looser” which allows it to follow the bend of a waistband. It is used mainly for facing waistbands when the fashion fabric is too thick, or otherwise not good for the inside of a waistband. There are probably other uses, but that’s the only use I have for it. I do use 1.5 inch and 2 inch grosgrain for facings, but it needs to be gathered at the top and eased onto the outer band. I tried to sew it edge to edge but, due to the curve of the pieces, it just didn’t work well. I am hasty, so others with more patience could have better luck. Cordially, Nehmah

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    Jan 15, 2010, 02.47 PMby wzrdreams

    So…. I was recently working on my Minna Dress and trying to find a trim that was flexible enough for the curved neckline and I thought back to this conversation about “petersham” which you’ve said is good for shaped waistband facings. Well, I talked to my designer about it and she flatly denied the practicality of this application. she showed me several samples and sure enough, it wanted to stay on the straight grain. Granted, I was looking at 2" wide “petersham” grossgrain, but it wouldn’t budge…. way to structured. I think it might be more shapeable in narrower widths, but the wide stuff wasn’t going to work even if I backed it with another fabric to train it to the proper shape.

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  Aug 22, 2009, 04.51 PMby nehmah

  OK, I have posted two photos of ribbons, green is poly grosgrain, and tan is Petersham cotton. If you look at the edges, carefully, you can see the difference in how they are woven. I hope that this will help. I really don’t think this belongs in “Projects” so if anyone will tell me where it should go, I will move them there. Hello, Mods, are you there with a good suggestion? Cordially, if misguided, Nehmah

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    Aug 23, 2009, 02.58 PMby wzrdreams

    Agh. I saw your picture post when you posted it, but I can’t find it now! I found these definitions online and wanted to contribute them to the discussion:

    From wikipedia:
    Grosgrain (pronounced /ˈɡroʊɡreɪn/) or also gros-grain, and rarely gros grain is a type of fabric characterized by its ribbed appearance. In grosgrain the weft is heavier than the warp, creating prominent transverse ribs. It is called a “corded” fabric since the weft resembles a fine cord. Grosgrain is a plain weave corded fabric, with heavier cords than in poplin but lighter than in faille. Grosgrain has a very dull appearance with little luster, however it is also very strong. It is a firm, close-woven, fine-corded fabric. While Grosgrain fabric is generally black, it can be many different colors, and grosgrain ribbon comes in a large variety of colors and patterns.
    Currently, grosgrain is used commonly to refer to a heavy, stiff ribbon of silk or nylon woven via taffeta weave using a heavy weft which results in distinct transverse ribs. Historically grosgrain was made from wool, silk or a combination of fibers such as silk and wool or silk and mohair. When a combination of fibers were used, the end result was sometimes given the name grogram, silk mohair, gros de Tours or gros de Napels.

    There was no Petersham ribbon in wikipedia, but I found this at Websters dictionary online:
    Specialty Definition: PETERSHAM RIBBON
    A narrow fabric having a pronounced rib weftway, composed of one or more picks per rib, and having lateral stiffness produced either by closeness of the weave or by a finishing process. It is woven with or without pockets in which to insert supports. The selvedges are formed by the return of the weft so as to produce gimp-like edges, or they are woven in a contrasting manner.
    A ribbon, usually with silk or rayon warp and having single picks of relatively coarse weft, usually cotton, to form a rib with the return of the weft making a gimp-like edge and traditionally with 24-36 ribs per inch.

    So, it sounds to me, like Petersham could be classified as a special type off Grosgrain, but not all Grosgrains are Petersham. Petersham specifically has the gimp/scalloped/bumpy edge.

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  Aug 23, 2009, 03.45 PMby nehmah

  You’re correct. ( it’s like: All roses are flowers; not all flowers are roses.) BTW, I’ve only ever seen one example of grosgrain fabric used in a garment. It was a formal dress. I believe it was a cotton-rayon blend. While it was a treat for the eye, the hand was too stiff for my taste. It felt like too-heavy taffeta. Cordially, Nehmah
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  Aug 25, 2009, 07.59 AMby davee09

  argh!!!!!!!!!!!! so confusing!!!!! lol

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    Aug 25, 2009, 01.47 PMby wzrdreams

    I know! lol. I work in fashion, so I was surprised that I’d ever heard of petersham before. I even asked the designer (who was labelling a box full of “petersham” grosgrain at the time) if she knew what petersham was and she looked at me like I had 3 heads!

    …Actually it’s not that surprising that there are so many different terms for things. I work for a better suit company and they refer to double welt (pockets) as “besom” pockets. I’d never heard of a besom before either.

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  Sep 8, 2009, 12.01 PMby janinarenate

  Grosgrain From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  A close up of a piece of grosgrain ribbon-note the ribs that go across the ribbon

  Grosgrain ribbons in various colors and widths.

  Grosgrain (pronounced /ˈɡroʊɡreɪn/) or also gros-grain, and rarely gros grain is a type of fabric characterized by its ribbed appearance. In grosgrain the weft is heavier than the warp, creating prominent transverse ribs. It is called a “corded” fabric since the weft resembles a fine cord. Grosgrain is a plain weave corded fabric, with heavier cords than in poplin but lighter than in faille.12 Grosgrain has a very dull appearance with little luster, however it is also very strong.3 It is a firm, close-woven, fine-corded fabric.4 While Grosgrain fabric is generally black, it can be many different colors, and grosgrain ribbon comes in a large variety of colors and patterns.

  Currently, grosgrain is used commonly to refer to a heavy, stiff ribbon of silk or nylon5 woven via taffeta weave using a heavy weft which results in distinct transverse ribs. Historically grosgrain was made from wool, silk or a combination of fibers such as silk and wool or silk and mohair.1 When a combination of fibers were used, the end result was sometimes given the name grogram, silk mohair, gros de Tours or gros de Napels.167
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  Jan 25, 2010, 09.19 AMby katexxxxxx

  Petersham is usually used to refer to the heavier, stiffer sorts used as a finish for waistbands and belts. Grossgrain or Petersham RIBBON is usually used for the lighter weight stuff used as a trimming or edging material. The ribbon can be folded, but the waistband stuff is too stiff. Petersham waistbanding comes in several types, and many widths, and can even have bones in to aid stiffness. For use as a waistband facing where there is no waistband above the waistline, the use of curved Petersham is recommended.

  http://www.mcourts-haberdashery.co.uk/curved-petersham-7747-p.asp

  Typical grossgrain ribbon: http://www.johnmaclennan.co.uk/new_images/6d.jpg

  Petersham or grossgrain ribbon can be steam pressed into gentle curves. It’s good for the edges of corsets! I’ve also used narrow grossgrain as corset strings.

  http://burdastyle-5.s3.amazonaws.com/project_images/assets/000/052/685/0514b2791900889f2d385af30a68bea9562df03d_large.jpg?1249003220

  http://burdastyle-0.s3.amazonaws.com/project_images/assets/000/052/686/ad3806c65484b36c6d66850218e246e4221bbab3_large.jpg?1249003221

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    Feb 12, 2010, 08.53 PMby wzrdreams

    That corset is amazing, good job!

    Thank you for your added input… I’m still on the fence though because I work in the fashion industry in production and everyone I work with from VP of production to the designer (maybe it’s a US thing?) refers to the stuff you are calling “petersham” as gross grain ribbon. The “typical” grossgrain ribbon in the link you’ve provided is refered to as “poly gross grain” all over the NYC garment district. The obvious difference between the 2 is that the poly grossgrain is made from polyester and the regular grossgrain is from cotton. The cotton weft is heavier than the poly version, creating the pronounced rib texture. The Poly versions also have a flatter selvage edge unlike the scalloped edge on cotton version. I’ve never had a problem folding the “petersham” grossgrain although I’ve never been able to shape it.

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  Feb 12, 2010, 11.24 PMby katexxxxxx

  Here grossgrain ribbon can be made from polyester, but that isn’t exclusive… It can also be made from silk and from acetate (though that’s now less common.

  Petersham is often made from polyester, sometimes from cotton, and occasionally from a mix of different fibers including linen and even viscose.

  Both the ribbon and the wasistaband stuff can be shaped gently with enough steam… :)

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    Feb 15, 2010, 05.37 PMby wzrdreams

    I’ve gotta make a trip to the UK one of these days, and not just for the petersham! :)